http://www.jenniferknapp.com/knappbecker_christmas
In a move that’s sure to turn some heads, long time Woman of Faith participant and CCM icon Margaret Becker joins forces with close friend Jennifer Knapp and is currently putting finishing touches on a Christmas project. There are also plans for a mini-tour.
Knapp is a Grammy nominated artist and a Dove award winner. In 2010 Jennifer made waves in the evangelical community when she openly shared that she is a lesbian, and has been in a same-sex relationship since 2002. She has said that her decision to leave the Christian music industry was not due solely to her coming out, but to a number of other personal factors.
Margaret Becker is a 30 year veteran of the CCM music industry winning multiple Dove awards, and receiving numerous Grammy nominations as well. She is well-respected and has currently been part of the highly successful Woman Of Faith Conferences.
BSR reached out to Margaret Becker’s management for comment and received the following response from Kat Davis, one of Becker’s managers at the The Brown Book Agency, in Nashville.
BackSpinRadio 
What was the Sin of Sodom?
Genesis 19:1-25
Some “televangelists” carelessly proclaim that God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of “homosexuality.” Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.
Announcing judgement on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham’s nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home. Genesis 19 records that “all the people from every quarter” surround Lot’s house demanding the release of his visitors so “we might know them.” The Hebrew word for “know” in this case, yadha, usually means “have thorough knowledge of.” It could also express intent to examine the visitors’ credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If the latter was the author’s intended meaning, it would have been a clear case of attempted gang rape.
Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules,, Lot attempts to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the angry crowd, a morally outrageous act by today’s standards. The people of Sodom refuse, so the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.
Several observations are important. – First, the judgement on these cities for their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual incident.
Second, all of Sodom’s people participated in the assault on Lot’s house; in no culture has more than a small minority of population been homosexual.
Third, Lot’s offer to release his daughters suggests he knew his neighbors to have heterosexual interest.
Fourth, if the issue was sexual, why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits incest with his daughters? Most importantly why do all the other passages of Scripture refereing to this account fail to raise the issue of homosexuality?
Ezekiel 16:48-50
states it clearly. The people of Sodom, like many people today, had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs of the poor, and the worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry plague every generation. We stand under the same judgement if we create false gods or treat others with injustice.
THE HOLINESS CODE – SCRIPTURE STUDY
Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13
Christians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in Leviticus. But some ignore its definitions of their own “uncleanness” while quoting Leviticus to condemn “homosexuals.” Such abuse of Scripture destorts the Old Testament meaning and denies a New Testament message. “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.” These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel’s priests. Their meaning can only be fully appreciated in the historical and cultural context of the ancient Hebrew people. Israel, in a unique place as the chosen people of one God was to avoid the practices of other peoples and gods.
THE SIN OF SODOM & GOMORRAH
Sins are spoken of throughout Scripture
Pride – Isa. 3:9
lack of care for the poor Ex. 16:49-50
Adultery and lying – Jer. 23:14
Inhospitality – Luke 10:10
CONDCLUSION
Sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were many
Homosexuality (same-sex relational love) was not one of them
Their doom was sealed prior to this account
This Genesis account speaks of men intent on committing violent homosexual acts
Most likely they were heterosexual men
Rape or violent sex acts are never ok
This account is about grave inhopitality by the men of Sodom and Gomorrah
ramblinscotzman:
You ought to take ramblin out of your name cause you weren’t ramblin! You’re right on the mark, for what that’s worth. I think it was Gandhi who said of Christianity, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ”.
Thanks Kasy… just bracing myself for the crap-storm headed my way any minute. 😉
Mercy triumphs above judgment……
And this non sequitur has what, exactly, to do with a discussion regarding the clear teachings of Scripture against homosexuality? It has what, exactly, to do with believers following the biblical call to keep our brothers and sisters accountable regarding sin in their lives?
Contrary to many of your comments in this thread, it makes no sense that reading Scripture (or anything else, for that matter!) in its original language is going to magically make it say the exact opposite of what it says on its plain, straightforward reading.
Now, any response to my many comments/questions to you?
This conversation is so unattractive… I understand there have been some things said that aren’t correct (on both sides), but there are some involved who sound like judgmental idiots. No wonder “the world” looks at Christians with disdain.
What part of this conversation has done anything to bring anyone into the Kingdom? Is there a place for instruction, correction and debate? Yes, but too often in this conversation words have been thrown around that just sound like a bunch of angry, stiff, homophobes.
I think notunderground was the one who proposed essentially that when we removed the plank from our eye then we could judge… let me just ask, which of you is without sin? Not me!
Let’s get over ourselves… I’ll propose this again, why don’t we prayerfully ask our Father in Heaven to show us how to love the unlovable. Let’s allow the Holy Spirit to convict people of their sins. Let’s take some time to remember how much love Jesus had for us. So much that He died on the cross, was raised from the dead and conquered sin and death for us.
I realize this is a hot topic, but Truth will triumph in the end. If people put half the effort they put into arguing about homosexuality into reaching out to people that believe differently than they do, look different than they do and love other people than they do, maybe real Kingdom change could actually happen.
It sure is unattractive. Imagine what Christ must think of professing followers of His actually defending a behavior that He calls an abomination?
Worse than that, those of us here who have merely stood with Scripture’s teaching on this issue are continuing to be called all sorts of names, and by other professing Christians. My favorite name is ‘judgmental’ – you know, by those who have no problem at all judging US for simply agreeing with what Scripture says about this sin.
Unattractive, indeed!
Mo… your “standing with scripture” is focused on one thing. Homosexuality. You seem to be looking past some of the other stuff.
You are judging Margaret Becker and Jennifer Knapp and let me point this out again… YOU DON’T KNOW EITHER ONE OF THEM PERSONALLY! It’s not our job to go around telling everyone what they are doing wrong. Where is the scripture for that? None of the scriptures you guys are throwing around seem to indicate that we’re supposed to judge/correct perfect strangers.
Jesus seemed to focus His correction publicly on a particular group of judgmental, fake religious people… the Pharisees. The lives He touched/changed for the most part seemed to be very personal. Not a public proclamation of their sin and why they needed Him.
If any of you had a relationship with MB or JK, maybe then you could tell them everything you know about how bad homosexuality is. But you don’t know them. You aren’t in community with them. They didn’t ask what you thought, but you’ve publicly chastised them.
With the exception of Bill, none of you know what I think about homosexuality, but I’ll tell you what I think of this discussion. It’s a total waste of time. Nothing I say will change what you believe to be the truth. But I will continue to rely on the Holy Spirit to instruct me and lead me to the Truth.
“Mo… your “standing with scripture” is focused on one thing. Homosexuality. You seem to be looking past some of the other stuff.”
Good grief, that’s the point of the original post/article was! Of course I’m focusing on that. The rest is just deflecting from the issue – as you have done here, by once again screeching about me judging people, while you feel free to do so to me.
Jesus never said not to judge. Stop repeating the same tired old points. This has been addressed upthread. I will not repeat it. To those who insist on excusing/defending homosexuality have no interest in it. That continues to be proven here, and by so many people.
It truly has been disturbing to hear such things from the (supposed) followers of Christ.
Mo, you must have some kind of persecution complex.
How am I deflecting from the original topic? My point is, and will continue to be, that you don’t know MB or JK and therefore have no business judging them. Just as you have no business judging my “supposed” following of Christ.
You can continue on and on about your thoughts/beliefs on homosexuality, but the bottom line remains to be that you are not in community with either of these women and therefore have no place in their lives to correct or instruct them. Also, I’ll point out again, that what I believe about homosexuality has never been mentioned by me. My one and only point will continue to be that there’s no basis or reason for us to correct MB & JK.
You can have an opinion on it, but the fact that people continue to gossip about MG & JK without knowing them is a sin as well.
I remember hearing this somewhere, “No one is righteous – not even one.” (Romans 3:10) Oh, yeah, it’s in the Bible… there’s is this other one I really like too, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” (John 8:7)… See, I can throw out Bible verses too!
When I read this stuff, I just continue to understand why 20 & 30 somethings are leaving the church and never coming back. It’s not about being “accepting” of sins, but people knowing we are Christians by our love doesn’t seem to be as important as it should be.
“Mo, you must have some kind of persecution complex.”
And yet you and others are the ones defending homosexuality, calling me names, and accusing me of “judging”. Hilarious!
Mo you truly are not reading anything I am writing… I am not defending homosexuality. I am merely pointing out that you have not right to judge MB & JK. They have not asked you’re opinion and you don’t know them. There is no way for you to know MB’s motives or her heart. JK may have chosen a lifestyle that you see as sinful, but again, let the Holy Spirit convict. If JK becomes a part of your community of believers, then by all means share your concerns with her.
I really want to call you names, but so far I have not. I have talked about behavior that you are displaying, but I have yet to call you a name. For example, if I were to say you were an idiot, that would be calling you names. But up to this point I have only said that your attitude has come off as judgmental and that you seem to think we are persecuting you when we are only offering a different opinion.
I’ll also ask you again, what is this discussion doing for the Kingdom?
It’s remarkable how I keep being told I’m judging, and yet you and so many others have no qualms about continously judging me.
Why is that?
Also, show me where the Bible/Christ said Christians are never to make a moral judgment about any issue. I’d love to see that verse.
***
“I’ll also ask you again, what is this discussion doing for the Kingdom?”
For one thing, it’s shown me and anyone else reading the sorry mess that Christians (or professing ones, anyway) not only refuse to stand with Scripture on the issue of homosexuality and not only claim that the Bible supports this behavior, but on top of it all, they will condemn those Christians who do choose to stand with Scripture on this issue.
This is what the church of Christ has become.
It’s horrifying.
Scott: I love you brother and you know how much I do, but your so off base it’s not funny. Please go read I Timothy.
Jennifer Knapp was a public figure who proclaimed Christ, she continues to claim to be a follower of Christ, (which I am not questioning at this point) but she is now openly engaged in the practice of homsexuality and openly preaching it as approved by God. She is publically sinning therefore she is subject to public challenge. For her own benifit and for the benifit of the true church it is vital that she be exhorted to repent. Her sex life ceased to be private when she dragged it out into public view and then started preaching a flase doctrine. I love her and want to her to repent and be restored. As to your arguement about not being in community with Jennifer I disagree. If you are a follwer of Christ, I am in community with you, period. Are there different levels of community? Yes. However I have documented the public nature of this particular sin and therefore it is being hashed out on a Christian music blogg. The arguement could be easily made that since Jennifer’s platform was “Chrsitian music” this forum is an acceptable way to adress her. I also point out that I made contact with and received a statement from MB’s management. I think it’s fair to say that Im on some level of COMMUNITY with them. Finally this post and thread has nothing to do with lost people or people who are Gay and do not claim to be followers of Jesus. This is strictly an “in the family matter” and because of that the rules are different. I’m so tired of all the misplaced arguements that some are making in regards to how mean and bad the chruch is and how it’s our fault Gays feel unloved. You may have a piont on some level, but none of that has anything to do with this blogg and the thread. For the love of Pete start reading what people are actually saying!
Kasey, congrats, you can google, cut and paste arguements that support your position. I could go and find a blogg that says that the moon is neon pink, but that wont make it true. Same with the garbage you posted. You have chosen to follow more false teachers who have twisted and manipulated scripture to try and make it say what they want it to say. I don’t have to do that because the Bible clearly says that marriage is between a man and a woman. Jesus even said it too. In the New Testement Paul even makes it clear that the same sex act is also an abomination. It’s plain to see for all who are willing to accept it. I could be wrong, but your positions smack of post modern, Emergentspeak. WAKE UP! Your being lied too and led astray. I’m sure you mean well and you seem to have a good heart. I pray that the Spirit will snatch you from the grips of these “wolves in sheeps cloething”. That being said I’m done with you, because your posts are increasingly random as you make arguements against topics no one has brought up. It’s clear your not taking the time to read anyones posts, because your going in circles. Bless your heart. Go in Peace.
Mo, seriously it’s your tone man…you catch more flys with Honey.
The word “sodomite” is not found in the original Hebrew, nor is it found in the Greek. It was not until after the rise of the hierarchy in the institutional Church that the account of Sodom and Gomorrah began to be equated with homosexuality. It was then that the word “sodomite” came into use. The original use of this word simply referred to a person who was a resident of Sodom, and the phrase “homosexual offenders” introduces a word that wasn’t even used until the mid 1800’s to describe a practice of some kind that was happen thousands of years earlier, and the word itself – homosexual- didn’t appear in the Bible until 1958.
Many are also unaware of the fact that there is no word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is equivalent to the English word, homosexual. Up until very recently other phrases or words were used to translate the Greek words in the New Testament that seemed to be talking about some kind of same sex experience. Recently, a rash of moder translations have begun using the word homosexual as part of their translation.
The use of the word homosexual to translate a Hebrew or Greek word is very misleading. It reflects a bias on the part of the translator as well as a rather flagrant overgeneralization of a concept that has multiple nuances in ancient society. Sadly, using this term to translate a Hebrew or Greek word has confused this whole issue tremendously..
As ordinary Christians, we depend on Bible translators and scholars to give us accurate and clear translations of Scripture, but in this case they have failed miserable. The question before us is this: when we are confronted with a passage of Scripture that is obviously difficult to understand (even the Bible translators can’t agree on exactly what it means), how should we, as 21st century Christ followers, seek to respond? Answer: with great caution, humility, and a teachable spirit.
Please take note 1 Corinthians 6/11 that states, “and this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” It is not unreasonable to assume that some of men of Cornith and Ephesus who had become followers of Jesus had, at some point in their past, been part of the idolatrous temple worship of Diana and Aphrodite and in their idolatrous worship had either been the malakoi (the young catamite serving in the temple) or the arsenokoites(an older male who used the catamite) or they could have been involved in pederasty. In coming to belief in Christ, they were called to give up those behaviors because they were now washed, sanctified, and justified in Christ. Both of these behaviors however, are not in any way comparable to current homosexuality, as we understand it.
Mind you that women are not mentioned here. Again, we are left to wonder if women are given a free pass in regard to same sex relationships while only the men are chastised. It shows that this issue is not as cut and dried as most present day Christians have been led to believe. Looking carefully at these passages we see some behavior going on that was culturally driven. It shows the importance of looking at the Bible through the lens of culture and context before we extrapolate some teaching from the Scriptures and use it to condemn and marginalize an entire group of people in our current society.
It is an improper use of God’s Word to take a few verses and use them as simplistic proof-texts for complex contemporary issues. That is misusing the Bible. When thinking through the is issue more deeply it would seem that there is strong biblical justification for not continuing to brand gas men and women as depraved individuals on their way to hell. If someone chooses to have that attitude, they do so, not based on strong biblical support, but rather on their own emotional, cultural, or family bias.
@ Kasy –
You’ve made several responses to people, and yet no response to my questions/points. Why is that?
It is the fallacy of invincible ignorance to keep on re-issuing the same response to a refuted claim. Also it is a straw man argument to deliberately mis-state and mis-represent your opponent’s position in a weaker fashion to then attack that weaker distorted version of it as if the outcome of that fallacious methodology were somehow a justified-true belief! It’s not enough to just merely assert your position. You have to also “prove” your position! Otherwise it is subjective arbitrariness, as well as an argument from silence. So why should we believe it? It is as well a violation of the law of identity in logic (“A” is “A”, a thing is what it is and not something else) to mis-describe and mis-portray Christians as standing in final judgment, in final condemnation (when GOD only stands as the Ultimate Judge) of Jennifer Knapp when we warn her of what GOD declares regarding people demanding to be allowed to commit homosexuality. We are warning her of that judgment! We are warning her of that condemnation (Prov.27:6)! It would be unloving not to (1Cor.13:6)! This is not just our mere interpretation; it is in fact what GOD says! And it is GOD’S interpretation that makes all interpretation intelligible, meaningful and explainable. This is the same GOD WHO commanded Christians to prove their love and devotion to HIM (John 14:15; 1Jn.5:2-3) by bearing witness to the truth that GOD has revealed about the error of homosexuality, even though it will certainly mean their hatred and mis-understanding of us for doing so (John 15:18-21; Rom.1:30; Isa.5:20).
Ezek.3:18- “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19- Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.”
Does the Scripture in Matthew 7:1-5 in fact say not to judge?
Matthew 7:1- “Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2- For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3- And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4- Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5- Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”
Notice that verse 5 declares, “Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” The inference is that when the offending beam of one’s own unaided-arbitrary-inconsistent judgment is cast out of the eye, then one is able to clearly see to clearly “judge” according to GOD’S righteous standard, the mote (spec) in thy brother’s (or a sister’s) eye that needs to be cast out.
John 7:24- “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” St. Paul declares in 1Cor.5: 3- “For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4- In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5- To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
This was the case where a brother was living in (committing) fornication with his father’s wife (1Cor.5:1-13). Although, in the “days-of-Lot” mindset of today (Lu.17:28-32), maybe they (being “sexually-oriented” to each other) were in a loving-committed relationship that St. Paul should have been sensitive to had he not been so hatefully-blinded by a legalistic sexually-phobic “interpretation” of the Torah (being an ex-Pharisee, Phil.3:5). If this was the case, he might not have been so compelled to judgmentally-condemn people who just wanted to “love one another”. Question: Was St. Paul in violation of the 21st century “judging” view of Matt.7:1-5 as “interpreted” by avowed “homosexuals” and their minion-bedfellow-homosexualized-bamboozled-duped-of-Satan heterosexual followers?
In fact, not ‘all’ that the Pharisees said was wrong. That this is true is proven because “Jesus” said so!
Matt.23:1- “Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2- Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3- All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.”
Please note that Jesus said the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. This is the same Moses that GOD spoke through in the Law (the 5 Books of Moses) declaring HIS condemnation of homosexuality (Gen.13:13; 18:20; 19:ff; Lev.18:22; 20:13; Deut.23:17-18; 29:23). Why would Jesus put HIS stamp of approval on anything that the scribes and the Pharisees said? I mean, they’re “Pharisees” you know! And, why would Jesus (WHO, even though HE is GOD too, “didn’t condemn homosexuality”) put HIS stamp of approval on anything that the scribes and the Pharisees said knowing that they sit in Moses’ seat; the very Moses who said that GOD condemns homosexuality? Why would Jesus associate HIMSELF with Moses the Law giver if HE really wanted His followers to get the impression that HE did not at all neither speak about nor condemn people who demand to be allowed to commit homosexuality? Yet Jesus speaks favorably regarding the scribes and the Pharisees sitting in Moses’ seat “declaring” GOD’S law, the law that Jesus went by (Matt.5:17-18). So to be name-called “Pharisees” (because we do not accept the arbitrary homosexualization of Jesus and HIS Bible) is not totally a bad thing in all respects!
A very practical test is to ask yourself the question “is my interpretation of scripture leading me into a deeper love for God and practical love for others”. If not, then in all probability your understanding of the bible is flawed.
The list to understand the bible is short.
1. keep Jesus at the center of scripture
2. love Jesus more than you love the bible
3. let love be the guiding principal in your relationships with others
Gluttony is talked about at least as many times in scripture as homosexuality and the bible even calls it a form of idolatry – Philippians 3-19.
If churches are going to exclude gay men and women from their fellowship, why shouldn’t those same congregations exclude gluttonous idolaters? Or is it because it would exclude almost two thirds of its congregation.
When Jesus mentions people who are going to hell the people on his hit list include those who call their neighbor a fool, Matthew 5-22; Those who lust after women in their hearts Matthew 5-27; Those who are not good stewards of the gifts He has given them, Matthew 25; Those who do not provide food for the hungry or drink for the thirsty; people who do not welcome strangers or provide clothing to the naked; and people who don’t visit the prisoners. If those are the folks Jesus says are headed for hell, it seems that the church should place greater emphasis on making sure that people are engaging in social justice issues and caring for the disenfranchised people for the sake of their own souls.
Taking scripture as a whole, it is also important to note that there are many other issues that stand far higher on the bible moral agenda than the issue of homosexuality. Deceitfulness, greed, self interest, oppression of the weak, proud religious posturing and self righteousness. All have hundreds of verses that speak to those issues. There are over two thousand passages in the bible that deal with wealth, how we use material possessions, and our responsibility toward the poor. Making it not hard to miss where the writers of scripture focused their attention on what they considered supremely important.
THE ONLY UNFORGIVEABLE SIN IS BLASPHEMY. Against the Holy Spirit
The Bible makes it very, very clear. God the Father has sent His one and only Son Jesus Christ down to our earth to physically die on a cross in order to give all men and all women total forgiveness and total remission for all of their sins – which includes all past, present, and future sins that we will ever commit.
This gift of eternal salvation is available to every single person who will accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. The Bible makes it very clear that “whoever” calls upon the name of the Lord for eternal salvation will be saved from their sins if they are willing to accept Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross.
“A very practical test is to ask yourself the question “is my interpretation of scripture leading me into a deeper love for God and practical love for others”. If not, then in all probability your understanding of the bible is flawed.”
There can be nothing more practical than loving the “Body” enough to warn of false teaching and calling a fellow believer to repentance and restoration.
“The list to understand the bible is short.
1. keep Jesus at the center of scripture
2. love Jesus more than you love the bible
3. let love be the guiding principal in your relationships with others”
I agree with point one, however point two should be thrown out. The Bible is the Living Word of God. It is Jesus in the flesh.
(1 John 1:1-2,14) “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was with God in the beginning…14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.” To Love Jesus is to love the Bible, it is impossible to seperate the two. Point 3 is just a nice sentiment. I will note that these are man made talking points. Someone elses opinion, or interpretation of how to study the Bible. Just because you chose to accept them doesn’t make them any more, or less correct than my interpretations.
The rest of your post doesn’t even make sense in context to what is being discussed. You’re so blinded by your own personal bias that you can’t event stick to what the point is. Gluttony is a sin and it is something that I myself struggle with. I have friends and family that call me out and challenge me to do better. I am thankful for their accountability, but in regards to this Post and this thread, what does it have to do with Jennifer Knapp? Sin is Sin and just because one may be mentioned more than the other doesn’t mean the less mentioned is somehow not a sin and therefore more acceptable! That’s just silly!
Unlike so many of those in the Western chruch today I’m not afraid of Biblical church discipline enacted in accordance with scripture. In fact it is vital to keep the “Body” pure. But let’s stay on point please. We are not talking about a Christian struggling with same sex attraction, gluttony, or any other of your listed sins. We are talking about a Chrsitian who is openly embracing a sin and presenting it to others as “God approved”. There is a big difference. Either your purposely choosing not to see this distinction, or you can’t comprehend it. I don’t know how else to spell it out for you.
“THE ONLY UNFORGIVEABLE SIN IS BLASPHEMY. Against the Holy Spirit
The Bible makes it very, very clear. God the Father has sent His one and only Son Jesus Christ down to our earth to physically die on a cross in order to give all men and all women total forgiveness and total remission for all of their sins – which includes all past, present, and future sins that we will ever commit.
This gift of eternal salvation is available to every single person who will accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. The Bible makes it very clear that “whoever” calls upon the name of the Lord for eternal salvation will be saved from their sins if they are willing to accept Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross.”
This is a point we can absolutley agree on, but again, in light of the discussion I fail to see how this has anything to do with the points made.
A Christian is someone who has decided to entrust his or her life to Jesus Christ. A Christian trusts Christ for forgiveness of sin, a right standing before God, and guidance in life.
Christ makes a Christian a Christian. Going to church does not make a person a Christian. A special ceremony can’t do it. And nobody can be a Christian by trying to be a good person. Only Jesus Christ can make a person a Christian:
John 1:12,13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
“She is living in disobedience to God’s Word. It is as simple as that.”
That’s your opinion, only…. Please don’t speak for God and try to push YOUR interpetation of scripture as being correct. We will have to agree to disagree. :-))))))
Thank you for suggesting that I need to read the bible. I’ll do just that. You should too!
“A Christian is someone who has decided to entrust his or her life to Jesus Christ. A Christian trusts Christ for forgiveness of sin, a right standing before God, and guidance in life.”
Exactly right. Therefore, it seems reasonable to conclude that a Christian has a desire to obey what Christ has said in His Word, doesn’t it?
Tell me, then, why you say this in one breath and in the next claim that the Bible condones homosexuality, and that anyone who stands with the Bible’s teaching on it is “judgmental”?
I also notice you’ve completely ignored my posts and questions/points to you. Why is that?
Brother Moore:
Maybe your belief in those interpretations made by those “countless Christian Hebrew and Greek Scholars, pastors, Bible teachers, preachers and other mighty men of God who clearly and boldly support the position I’m taking” are completely wrong in their understanding of the Holy Scriptures!
After all, it was the Scholars, pastors, Bible teachers, and other mighty men of God, who were also called the Pharisees when Jesus was walking the earth as a human being, who clearly and boldly proclaimed that Jesus was NOT the Son of God and put him to death on the cross! They were the Jewish Scholars of their day, and were not to be questioned! They studied the Jewish laws and traditions and didn’t recoginize that Jesus was their GOD! How could a lifetime of study and dedication to the scriptures be blind to the coming of their messiah?? They claimed he was committing blasphemy! Just because YOU believe today’s Scholars and mighty men of God, doesn’t mean they are correct in their comprehension of the Holy Bible.
It was the “SMALL minority” that believed Jesus was God. And guess what, it was the SMALL minority” that were right!!!!
“We are however, vigorously defending the Faith and doing our duty in regards to calling out false doctrine.”
I’d really like to know how Jennifer’s God given gift of sharing the Gospel through her music is threatening your Faith? It actually enhances mine.
“So please, I ask you sincerly, to refrain from the straw man attacks suggesting that we are biggots, or homophobes who carry flaming torches chasing down helpless Christians struggling with same sex attractiion so we can to burn them at the stake.”
Excuse me, but I never said any of those things in the above paragraph. Those are YOUR words, not mine. I don’t think you want to burn people at the stake. I could be wrong though.
Jennifer’s sin is between her and God. It’s not your place to condemn her. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins. I think YOU need to repent and turn away from the sin of passing judgement when that is clearly God’s job. Mind your own business, and let Jennifer Knapp do what she does best….. spread the Word of God’s love to mankind through her music.
You said, “Maybe your belief in those interpretations made by those “countless Christian Hebrew and Greek Scholars, pastors, Bible teachers, preachers and other mighty men of God who clearly and boldly support the position I’m taking” are completely wrong in their understanding of the Holy Scriptures! After all, it was the Scholars, pastors, Bible teachers, and other mighty men of God, who were also called the Pharisees when Jesus was walking the earth as a human being, who clearly and boldly proclaimed that Jesus was NOT the Son of God and put him to death on the cross!”
Again, I am not arrogant enough to suggest that our church fathers and the generations of Spirit led saints that follwed and help shape traditional Christianty as we know it today got it wrong. I trust the leading hand of the holy Spirit as He guides and moves within the real and living body of Christ. As of today it is still the postion of the “Church” universal that marriage is between an man and a woman and that anything else outside of that is sin. To compare so many Godly church Saints to the scribes and Pharisees hints at an arrogance and cynisism that might need to be dragged into the light and laid bare before God.
Whatever “gospel” Jennifer is sharing is drowned out by her willful choice to embrace a false teaching. I fear for her soul and pray for her repntance and restoration.
You said “Excuse me, but I never said any of those things in the above paragraph. Those are YOUR words, not mine. I don’t think you want to burn people at the stake. I could be wrong though.”
I’m sorry, you’re right, you didn’t use those words exactly, but with your overall tone and choice of words I wouldn’t be surprised if you went there soon enough.
“Jennifer’s sin is between her and God. It’s not your place to condemn her. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins. I think YOU need to repent and turn away from the sin of passing judgement when that is clearly God’s job. Mind your own business, and let Jennifer Knapp do what she does best….. spread the Word of God’s love to mankind through her music.”
This statement seems to indicate that you know little about Biblical discipline and defense of the Faith within the church body.It also shows that you again are either not really reading my posts, lack the ability to comprehend my posts, or are to blinded by your own personal bias to see where I am coming from. To contiue to accuse me of condeming Jennifer is an outright lie. I see no point in continuing this disscussion if you don’t stop this dishonesty. Nowhere in my postings have I condemed Jennifer. I have not passed any judgment on her for that is the Lord’s job. However I am free to MAKE A JUDGEMENT based on scripture that Jennifer is publically sinning and should be challenged. There is a clear difference between the two and a simple study of I Timothy will show that I am within scriptural principles to do so.
I have clearly stated my love an concern for Jennifer and desire God’s best for her. Since Jennifer had a public ministry and conitues to have a public ministry where she is preaching false doctrine on marriage and sexuality. I have a Biblical responsibility to warn others of her teaching and to call her to repentance.
Get your facts straight. JK is NOT PREACHING a false doctrine by claiming that same sex union is approved by God. She is simply living her life and loving the person she chooses to love without the guilt you want to place on her. She worships God just like you. She loves God just like you. She is a christian just like you. YOU cannot tell Jennifer she must love who YOU think she should love. That’s not your place. That is God’s job and the Holy Spirit. You are the one saying that if she doesn’t love a “man” then she must live her life alone, or risk going to hell. God never said that…… that’s YOUR opinion, not Gods. Your interpretation of the Holy Bible is inaccurate. God NEVER said not to love, nor did HE say it was wrong to love. You really need to stop condemning others and look at your own lacking. God is pleased with Jennifer Knapp, but very disappointed with your judgemental condemnation of her. Only God can judge. You are wrong to do that. Jesus never spoke one word about homosexuality. You don’t know her or her heart. From what I see, YOU are the self-righteous finger pointing name calling one. As a matter of fact, you could learn something from her. Keep on keeping on Jennifer. Spread the Good Word and show people that God loves them. God loves everyone, ALL…. and He is your God too. Jesus died for our sins on the cross and it is finished, tetelestai!
Please don’t clobber me with your inaccurate interpretations of the six verses that supposedly address homosexuality, unless you have read the bible in Hebrew.
With regards to Margaret Becker having a friend who is gay, do you have any friends that have gossipped, committed adultery, coveted, lied, stolen, etc. Just wondering……
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye”
“You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.”
“You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.”
“Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way”
“Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.”
Any of those verses sound familiar?
Don’t play God, you are not HIM. And I am thankful for that.
Each and every one of us must remember that every gay or lesbian person is part of someone’s family- someones son or daughter, brother or sister, cousin, uncle or aunt. No one ever wants a member of their family to be treated differently, and we must always remember to treat one another with diginity and respect, just as Jesus did.
You said, “Please don’t clobber me with your inaccurate interpretations of the six verses that supposedly address homosexuality, unless you have read the Bible in Hebrew.”
You say we are using inaccurate interpretations of the scripture yet you offer no proof text in defense of your interpretation. You seem to think that by simpley stating that our interpretations are wrong you win the debate. Sorry that’s not how it works. In regards to the clear teaching on marriage and sexuality in the Bible, I’ll go with the countless Christian Hebrew and Greek Scholars, pastors, Bible teachers, preachers and other mighty men of God who clearly and boldly support the postion I’m taking. Not to mention the fact that it has been the position of Historical Christianity for centuries. I’m not arrogant enough to think that they got it wrong and a SMALL minority now twisting scripture and teaching otherwise has it right. I’ll stick with our church fathers and a mighty legacy of saints smarter and more holy than you and I.
The arguement that says “Jesus never Said anything about homosexuality therefore it must be ok” is absolutley silly.
In math, we learned that 2+2=4. We never had to learn that 2+2=5 is wrong. Once we knew the correct answer, we could therefore assume that any answer other than 4 was incorrect. Just because we weren’t taught explicitly that 2+2=5 is wrong didn’t mean it was acceptable. We would have certainly had it marked wrong on a test, and no amount of arguing would have changed the teacher’s mind.
When approached regarding the issue of marriage, Jesus simply recalled the words of Moses in Genesis 2:24: “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate” (Matthew 19:4-6).
Jesus taught us what marriage is, so there really wasn’t any need to teach us what marriage is not. If that’s the case, then we can safely assume that whatever doesn’t match up with his description of marriage is wrong.
I would like to say that it seems that you have not really given a good reading of my posts or many of the other posts on this thread. If you had you would see that we are not condeming or pointing fingers at Jennifer, or Margret. We are however, vigerously defending the Faith and doing our duty in regards to calling out flase doctrine. We wish no ill will towards Jennifer, in fact it’s quite the opposite. We long to see her repent and turn away from the sin she is publicaly and openly involved in and return to a right relationship with God and the “Body” according to the Scriptures, not according to man. So please, I ask you sincerly, to refrain from the straw man attacks suggesting that we are biggots, or homophobes who carry flaming torches chasing down helpless Christians struggling with same sex attractiion so we can to burn them at the stake. It’s untrue, unjust and unworthy of a serious discussion, about a very serious problem facing the Western church.
@ Kasy –
“Get your facts straight. JK is NOT PREACHING a false doctrine by claiming that same sex union is approved by God.”
A professing Christian (and one in the public eye!) living a life that is in direct contradiction to Scripture and thinking there is nothing wrong with it is doing exactly that. It would be the same thing as a married Christian carrying on an affair in public and claiming this is just fine. Both are immoral. And both would be called out, as many people have done here.
“She is simply living her life and loving the person she chooses to love without the guilt you want to place on her.”
Nonsense. No one can “place guilt” on anyone. The feeling of guilt is an emotion. No persona can force another to feel anything.
God’ s Word is clear on this matter. If she feels guilty (which I’ve not seen evidence of) it’s because she knows what she’s doing is wrong. (Oh, and no amount of reading in Hebrew will make it say the exact opposite of what it does, as you claim later on in this diatribe.)
“She worships God just like you. She loves God just like you.”
She is living in disobedience to God’s Word. It is as simple as that.
“She is a christian just like you. YOU cannot tell Jennifer she must love who YOU think she should love. ”
Hilarious! Show me where anyone is telling her who to love?
Also, what, in your view, is a Christian? I’d love to hear your definition.
“That’s not your place. That is God’s job and the Holy Spirit. You are the one saying that if she doesn’t love a “man” then she must live her life alone, or risk going to hell.”
What nonsense. Show me where anyone has said that.
“God never said that…… that’s YOUR opinion, not Gods.”
Looks like you need to read your Bible.
“Your interpretation of the Holy Bible is inaccurate.”
And yours is? Tell me, what is that interpretation?
‘”God NEVER said not to love, nor did HE say it was wrong to love. You really need to stop condemning others and look at your own lacking. ”
No clue what you’re talking about “loving”.
Yet it’s okay for YOU to condemn US. Why is that?
“God is pleased with Jennifer Knapp, but very disappointed with your judgemental condemnation of her.”
Says who? You? Did God tell you this? God has spoken, and it’s not through you. It’s through His Word.
“Only God can judge.”
Then why are you judging us? The hypocrisy is stunning!
“You are wrong to do that.”
And yet you continue doing it, eh?
“Jesus never spoke one word about homosexuality. ”
Jesus upheld marriage. He also upheld the Old Testament. (In part, because He’s Yahweh come in the flesh!) He also spoke through Paul’s writings. So, yes, He sure did.
Six verses? In Hebrew? Wow! I guess all the stuff in Greek in the NT (and what I said regarding Jesus) doesn’t apply? What method of biblical “interpretation” is this, exactly? And where did you learn it? I’d love to know.
I’ve wasted enough time on this reply. Answer some of the things I’ve posed and then I’ll see if I should continue. I’m sure I’ll get nothing. (Except maybe some more judging.)
Ashamed of you.
So many of you sound like the Pharisees in the Gospels. “Look at him [Jesus]. He’s associating with sinners!”
MB is doing no more and no less.
Do what Jesus asked the Pharisees and religious leaders to do. Repent.
With all due respect Wookie, this isn’t some case of Margret Becker hanging out with someone who never claimed to be a Christ follower. Jennifer Knapp made very open professions of faith and was an award winning Christian artist. She is now preaching a false doctrine by claiming that her same sex union is approved by God, when scriptures clearly teach otherwise. It is the duty of every true Christ follower to challenge Jennifer in the hopes that she may see the error of her ways and repent in order to be restored into a right fellowship with the Body of Christ.
There is no clear indication from the Becker camp as to where she stands on all this, however the wisdom of her public minsitry association with Jennifer raises serious questions about where she stands on the issue, but that is a topic for another day.
Please get your facts straight before you chime in with self-righteous finger pointing and name calling. And I mean that sincerly with no malice intended.
…I think you all need to go beat on a pillow or chop down a tree to get all this energy out…just please do something else besides typing more ‘I’m right-you’re not’ psychobabble…
Nothing of substance to add to this important discussion, eh?
Looks like you’re the one who need to go beat on a pillow or chop down a tree.
“I see that most of the negative comments are from one source. It’s interesting that one person feels so strongly against two strong women of faith.”
To refer to comments that honor GOD’S righteous commandments as negative is logically confused thinking (genetic fallacy)! To imagine a god who simultaneously condemns homosexuality while at the same time, place, relation and circumstance commands blessing to the same would be a god that is a schizophrenic deity that being another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel (2Cor.11:4) that the Bible warns about. A tree is known by its fruit (Matt.7:15-23); and as well we’re in the time when people will not endure sound doctrine. They will e.g., have a form of godliness but deny the power/authority thereof, drawing near to GOD with their lips but their hearts are far from HIM, being lovers of pleasures more than lovers of GOD. From such turn away (2Tim.3&4; Isa.29:13; Matt.15:8, 13).
“Just as history is on the side of Christians who believed that “slaves should obey their masters”…should not be interpreted as a reason to support slavery in America. The Bible is a living document and as such must be interpreted with an eye on the spirit of the word and it’s cultural considerations.”
It’s a false analogy that avowed homosexuals are in-famous for (ad nauseam) to equate people who demand to be allowed to commit homosexuality with race. That’s a fallacious move that assumes that “homosexual-sexual-orientation” is real. Homosexuality is not a race! “Gay people” are not “a people” like Blacks are a people, or Chinese are a people! It’s insanity to believe so. It’s also an anachronism to impose as an explanation a 20th century “living document” interpretation of the Constitution (based on Evolution) on the Bible. The GOD of the Bible is not backed up against the wall by cultural considerations; as if, because something is happening in the culture that’s determinative of the truth thereof (naturalistic fallacy). Remember, it’s GOD’S “interpretation” of the facts and/or the objects of knowledge that makes them intelligible, meaningful and explainable, not Sodom’s! If you’re going to be rational you can’t continue to commit logical fallacies as if that procedure were methodologically sound and think that’s somehow magically going to convince our Biblically based thinking!
“The message of Jesus is clear, love. He was essentially tearing away long held cultural norms to usher in a message which was much more important that pharisaical regulations. This message is love, hope, and acceptance for All who believe in Him! No one can separate us from the love of God thru Christ Jesus our Lord! Amen”
The message of love was and continues to be for “all” HIS people, in all generations (Mk.13:20; 2Tim.2:10) out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation (Rev.5:9). These are the ones who cannot be separated from the love of Christ (Rom.8:38-39). Question: Is this passage of Scripture true? If yes (why would you appeal to IT if IT wasn’t true), then is Rom.1:18-32 true as well? And, why are you self-refutingly quoting from a Book (apparently unwittingly) that declares homosexuality to be against nature (against the way that you were really born i.e., heterosexually)? Whatever implies an absurdity is itself absurd!
I noticed that there is not a refutation of any of the Scriptures that condemn homosexuality only the emotional irrational dismissing of the undeniable fact that the Scriptures condemn it. Why should Christians deny what they believe to accommodate what self-defined homosexuals illogically believe arbitrarily? Why is “judging” wrong and homosexuality isn’t? I could ask, so in “your judgment” I am judging? And is that Bible verse true in Matt.7:1-6 that avowed homosexuals (and their minion-homosexualized-heterosexual-bedfellows) appeal to true? And if so, then aren’t the Scriptures that condemn homosexuality true as well? Actually, I’m not judging the people who demand to be allowed to commit homosexuality. I am warning them of that judgment! That this is the case is proven because true love rejoices in the truth (1Cor.13:6). GOD was loving when HE prohibited the abomination of homosexuality to HIS people. And it takes more love to tell a person the truth that GOD has commanded us to tell, knowing that that will cause their hatred and misunderstanding of the messenger, which is an irrational hatred, fear (phobia) and dread of the Message.
How can atheism help the cause of same-sex Sodom from its beginning-starting-point for reasoning (since there is no GOD) of matter in motion sound and fury signifying nothing that just sort of happened once upon a time, in a land far, far away, when we wish upon a star by blind-random-chance factors, for no reason (the absurdity of a causeless effect) from nothing? How are the intricate-organized-complex factors that it takes for logical and rational argumentation regarding this subject accounted for and made sense of in a matter-only-existing universe where non-material entities like the laws of logic are not real? Maybe, evolution can be of some assistance! But how does homosexuality survive (non-homosexuality became homosexuality) when it does not “homosexually” produce and re-produce itself?
If you believe in the Trinity, then it is readily known that Jesus the Second Person of the Trinity in no uncertain terms condemns homosexuality, just pick the verse! This is an argument ganged up on by a brutal bunch of undeniable Biblical facts! It seems as if some people believe that Jesus’ existence only began in the manger. Jesus said that HE could only do what HE sees the Father doing (St.Jn.5:19-20). So if HE sees the Father condemning homosexuality, HE therefore would do likewise because HE always does those things that please the Father (St.Jn.8:29). If “Jesus didn’t condemn homosexuality”, then HE would not have pleased the Father; and yet the Bible declares that the Father was well pleased with the Son (Matt.3:17; 17:5).
GOD is love does not mean that “love” is GOD! The abstract concept of “love” is not a person. It doesn’t have feelings nor intelligence, nor understanding that it can dictate against what GOD’S Word declares about people who demand to be oxymoronically honored with virtuous accolades for committing homosexuality. GOD is the ONE WHO informs the Biblical meaning of the concept of love HE has created, not self-described homosexuals! In fact, Jesus said to HIS people, if you love ME keep MY commandments (St.Jn.14:15), like the ones HE declared in Romans 1:18-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1Timothy 1:9-10; 2 Peter 2:6-9; Jude 7-8 just to cite a few.
I would say to Margaret Becker, how is it “Christian” for the light of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ (which condemns homosexuality) to ingratiatingly tolerate the darkness and retrograde cesspool of same-sex Sodom, which GOD hates (Gen.19:24; Ps.11:6; Hosea 9:9-15; Lev.18:22; Matt.7:6; II Cor. 6:14-18; Ps. 5:4)? Why do you, like Jehoshaphat help the ungodly and love them that hate the LORD (2Chron.19:2; Rom.1:30)? Why do you (like the world) call evil good and good evil (Isa.5:20)? Aren’t we who love the LORD (Ps.97:10; Prov.8:13; Rom.12:9) supposed to hate evil and to shun someone who is a “professing” Christian (Ps.50:16-18; Matt.7:15-29) until they recover out of the snare of the Devil (Ps.139:20-22; 1Cor.5:1-13; 2Tim.2:26)? To be a Christian in this situation means to be on GOD’S side regarding what HE has declared concerning homosexuality. It doesn’t ultimately matter what man asserts (Ps.118:8) temporally about homosexuality because finite-fallible-miserably-fallen man does not possess all the knowledge (Isa.55:8-9) that GOD has and is therefore unable to even know the things that he professes to know about this subject being discussed here unaided by this GOD. This is the same GOD WHO condemns homosexuality!
How is it rational to name call Christians (who are standing for GOD’S righteousness) “bible thumpers”? Is that a logical argument that proves that the people who demand to be allowed to commit homosexuality have a justified true belief? How is that a “proof” that homosexuality is true? How does that make me realize that the cause from same-sex-Sodom is right? Is there just one logical argument from the advocates of same-sex Sodom that will cause their opposition to say, hey, you know, they have a valid point there? We’re still waiting!
Additionally, are the same favorable arguments from Sodom’s second coming going to be utilized when the other sexual situations/“sexual orientations” listed in Leviticus 18:ff. (and those listed in the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, DSM) as well come out of the closet? And by the way, where is the scientifically-substantiated, empirically-verified, REPLICATABLE, objective (not subjective), justified, done-deal proof that “homosexual-sexual-orientation” is real other than the subjective arbitrary wishful thinking of people who demand to be allowed to commit homosexuality? If homosexuality is something that GOD desires in a good way, then why didn’t HE create a way for them to produce and reproduce (a sign of HIS blessing) more of themselves? Notice that after GOD called all of creation into being and male and female heterosexuality that HE said, behold, it was very good (Gen.1:31). How could the creation be very good with no “homosexuals” in it?
“I noticed that there is not a refutation of any of the Scriptures that condemn homosexuality only the emotional irrational dismissing of the undeniable fact that the Scriptures condemn it. ”
THANK YOU. The worst thing is that some of these comments are from professing Christians!
***
“And by the way, where is the scientifically-substantiated, empirically-verified, REPLICATABLE, objective (not subjective), justified, done-deal proof that “homosexual-sexual-orientation” is real other than the subjective arbitrary wishful thinking of people who demand to be allowed to commit homosexuality?”
Amen!
Again, even Christians have bought into the lie that people are “born that way”, when there is no evidence of that, other than people claiming it to be so.
“it takes more love to tell a person the truth that GOD has commanded us to tell,” — No, it just takes more arrogance to believe that god called you to do any judgment that god alone can do. It’s really that simple: a book written by the Jewish people, that most Christians simply read with Western eyes (most Christians don’t even realize 64 of those 66 books were written by the Jews) is now taken as a personal set of rules for living a life in the 21st century. Clearly there’s no development of ideas anymore for Christians since the last 2000 years. And they are still always judging everyone else. They say “we love the sinner but hate their sins” in stead of loving the sinner and hate their own sins (including their sin of judging others).
It is not surprising that such Christians are now totally out of touch with the other people in this world. (But thank god for people like Jennifer and Margaret).
Tell me, how is it judgmental for Christians to stand with Scripture on the matter of other professing Christians who are homosexuals or approve of homosexuality?
And yet you have no problem judging those who have spoken up, don’t you?
(The rest of your comment is incoherent, so I won’t address it.)
I’m amazed by this discussion…
I know Bill very well and I understand where he’s coming from, but Mo, you’re being arrogant and judgmental on every post. I’d say you’re somewhat of an instigator and a bully quite honestly.
Margaret Becker hasn’t done anything wrong. You don’t know her. You don’t know her relationship to Jennifer Knapp. You don’t anything about her personally, you’re just spewing your opinions.
You quoted the scripture on judging and apparently forgot to read it…
3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
It’s all well & good to talk about the sins and failures of Margaret and Jennifer, but what does it accomplish? Are you without sin? I’m not.
Just as I believe you can’t know Margaret’s heart, I don’t believe I can truly know yours, but I know that God calls us to love one another. Your words do not sound loving. They sound like someone who wants to be right.
Good point Ramblinscotzman,
I have been thinking that it might be wise to note that all Margaret has done her is record music with a friend. There has been no “coming out” or official statements to that end. It would be prudent to not cast any dispersions on her for things she has not done. Wether or not it was/is wise for her to be aligning herself publicly in a ministry setting with some one so clearly wrong on this issue is a discussion for another day.
Yet you have no problem “judging” me, right?
Bill has made some of the same points I have made. You’re not calling him names.
I am amazed that simply standing up for Scripture gets one called names, and by other people who supposedly believe and follow those same Scriptures.
Brother Mo,
Although I agree with many of your points, your tone does not translate in a loving way, you may not mean to come across so harshly, but It’s hard to tell on these kind of forums, Maybe there is just a misunderstanding here. It wouldn’t hurt to check yourself to make sure your not coming across as angry or hurtful. But keep speaking truth!!
@ Bill –
I am the one being called names for simply standing with Scripture, yet I am the one spoken to, while those doing the name calling are allowed to continue?
My first response is to not give in. Giving in means acknowledging that the things said about me are true. They are not true.
But I have learned that when the deck is stacked this way, I cannot win. I will continue to be called names and have false things said about me. Yet what have I done, except to stand with Scripture and say even the same things you have said?
It really is puzzling and frustrating to be treated this way. I guess since I can’t win, I will let the accusers and name callers win, and just go. I know anything further I say will only be twisted.
All I can ask is for people to look back at every comment I’ve posted here, and decide for yourselves if my treatment here has been in any way justified.
@Mo
Again, I’m not calling you names. Look at what I am saying. My perception, based on your previous comments, is that you were being judgmental and a bit of a bully. I’m not saying that you are a judgmental bully. I don’t know you. I am going to assume the best about you, but your comments and tone have not been nice.
Don’t play the victim now. You came in, guns blazing, and now I’m just pointing out that you weren’t coming off kind. That is all I am saying.
Beyond that, I refer again to my previous post… we have experienced redemption thru Jesus Christ, so we should set our minds on sharing that redemptive spirit with others.
Mo-
I’m sorry you feel double teamed, that is not the intention. I’m just offering some brotherly critique. I appreciate your willingness to comment and to contend for the Faith.
Mo… I’m not really calling you names. I’m simply explaining my perception of the behavior you are displaying. Your comments – which we all know can be completely misunderstood in written form – are coming off very argumentative and judgmental. I also feel like the way you are presenting those arguments are quite inflammatory and seem to have a bullying tone.
As I mentioned before, I know Bill. I know his heart. I’ve called him many more names in our lifetime than you can ever imagine.
To your other statement about “simply standing up for Scripture,” I really don’t think that is what you’re doing. That’s my perception at least. My feeling is that unless you have a relationship with one of these people, it’s not really your job to question Margaret’s heart or actions. Honestly, I don’t know Jennifer’s heart either. I willingly sin on a regular basis. I have rejected God through my actions many times, but I know that I am His. I love Him, but I’m not perfect.
This gay issue has been so mishandled by the Church. We were not put here on earth to change people. We are part of the Kingdom and our job is to spread the Good News that Jesus paid the price for our failures and sin. He redeemed us. He set us free.
Since we have been redeemed, we must be redemptive. We’ve been forgiven, so we must forgive.
Instead of defending the Word of God, why don’t we try living it out. I’m not saying just let crazy ideas and misrepresentation of the Bible go on without correction, but those things should be happening in community and in discipleship of others.
Lastly, if we are so concerned about the Margaret Beckers & Jennifer Knapps of the world, pray for them and watch what God does. Your heart and mind will be transformed. You will love those people and see them through His eyes. Your compassion will grow for them. Prayer changes things, especially the person praying and yielding themselves to the Holy Spirit.
I would like to point out that there are many more exhortations in the scripture for slaves to obey their masters( see 1peter, Colossions, Ephesians etc) however we as believers do not use the the bible to promote slavery Anymore! At one time it was widely used and quoted to keep people enslaved. In fact there are twice as many verses about slavery as there are about sexual acts between men. However the church was able to see that slavery has no place in Christ. So we now see that gay people are fellow believers. This is the wonder of the living scripture. The church has changed it’s position on slavery, women in ministry, and many other regulations all because Jesus brought us grace.” Therefore there Is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus! “
Dear Tooblessed,
Those who used the passages you mentioned to justify slavery were wrong, the fact that they too mis-interpreted scripture does not give credence to your argument. They and those who now claim that scripture justifies same sex marriage and same sex activity are still wrong and are teaching heresy.
The fact there there are more exhortations in scripture dealing with slavery also does not lend any extra credence to your argument. Using “the BIBLE talks about this more than that” litmus test means nothing in the long run.
I wonder if you read my post? I make no claim that Gays can’t be believers. I in fact believe that there are many Christians who struggle with same sex attraction, or have a same sex preference. What I did say, was that the Bible is clear that marriage is between a man and a woman and that same sex activity is clearly “sin” according to the scriptures. For a “Christian” to embrace and engage in these activities without remorse, is SIN. For a “Christian” to openly preach that the Bible supports these activities is HERESY and must be condemned and called out for the sin it is. We do this in hopes that the offending brother, or sister will see the error of their ways, repent and be restored in to right fellowship with God and the Body of Christ.
You are making many broad assertions that I suspect you can’t back up with facts in regards to your use of the word “Church” What is your definition of church? Are you talking the Church Universal, or segments of the western church? Are you talking the historical/traditional Church?
The “Historical Church” as founded by Apostles including Paul, NEVER held the position that slavery was accepted NEVER! The passages you referred to are merely instructions on how slaves who had become followers of Christ should now live. To suggest that this is somehow a Biblical endorsement of slavery is contextual ignorance of the worst kind.
The Universal/traditional Church still holds, and correctly so, that there are certain ministries that woman are not to lead in, there are segments and factions that have abandoned this Biblical passage, but you are incorrect to suggest that the Church Universal has accepted woman in ministry, and by that I mean Women as pastor/leaders over men.
Yes and Amen to your point that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus! But freedom from condemnation does not give us cart blanche freedom to ignore scriptural principles on how we should live as followers of Jesus. Rasputin was wrong. Grace does not cover the willful rejection and twisting of Gods word those who claim the “blood” while willfully sinning and teaching false doctrine will be called out.
@ Tooblessedtostress –
Instead of changing the topic to slavery, what about answering my question? Here it is again, so you cannot say you didn’t see it:
f you are a follower of Christ, then it seems reasonable to assume you have reverence for what the Bible says, correct?
Given this fact, how do you justify supporting a behavior that the Bible repeatedly calls an abomination?
The truth is plain to see. These women are spreading Jesus’ message of hope and love. We could argue over many passages in the bible and the people posting negative comments will continue to disregard and biblical evidence that contradicts their position. The list of abominations in the bible is long and most are ignored by today’s Christians. Mormons use the bible to support plural marriage, 7th day Adventists use it to worship on Saturday, Catholics use it to keep clergy celibate. Obviously everyone doesn’t agree (and people who don’t will say they are misinterpreting the bible) and that is why
there are many denominations. I personally would be glad to have Margaret Becker and Jennifer knapp gay or not, in my church!
@ Tooblessedtostress
“These women are spreading Jesus’ message of hope and love.”
What message is that? Show me where the Bible in any way supports homosexuality.
“We could argue over many passages in the bible and the people posting negative comments will continue to disregard and biblical evidence that contradicts their position. ”
Show it to me.
Why do you continue to ignore the question I have put to you? Here is it, for the third time:
If you are a follower of Christ, then it seems reasonable to assume you have reverence for what the Bible says, correct?
(Actually, by your continued comments it’s clear you are not. But let’s assume you consider yourself a follower of Christ.)
Given this fact, how do you justify supporting a behavior that the Bible repeatedly calls an abomination?
Dear TooBlessesd,
You stated… “The truth is plain to see. These women are spreading Jesus’ message of hope and love. We could argue over many passages in the bible and the people posting negative comments will continue to disregard and biblical evidence that contradicts their position” With all due respect you have just described yourself. “The truth is plain to see…” I agree, so why are you ignoring it?
You wrote… “The list of abominations in the bible is long and most are ignored by today’s Christians. Mormons use the bible to support plural marriage, 7th day Adventists use it to worship on Saturday, Catholics use it to keep clergy celibate. Obviously everyone doesn’t agree (and people who don’t will say they are misinterpreting the bible)” I agree with this statement, however it is not a justification for Christians who preach false doctrine in regards to marriage and sexuality. It’s still wrong, it’s still heresy and it must be cast out of the Christian church.
It’s clear that I am not getting through to you and that we are not making headway. I suggest we end this discussion and I will pray that God would open your eyes to your error and your apathy towards obvious false doctrine and sin.
Be well
I see that most of the negative comments are from one source. It’s interesting that one person feels so strongly against two strong women of faith. We all know that history will be on Margaret and Jennifer’s side. Just as history is on the side of Christians who believed that “slaves should obey their masters”…should not be interpreted as a reason to support slavery in America. The Bible is a living document and as such must be interpreted with an eye on the spirit of the word and it’s cultural considerations. The message of Jesus is clear, love. He was essentially tearing away long held cultural norms to usher in a message which was much more important that pharisaical regulations. This message is love, hope, and acceptance for All who believe in Him! No one can separate us from the love of God thru Christ Jesus our Lord! Amen.
Tooblessesd, thanks for posting. By your comments I’m going to assume that you are a Christian. If that’s the case I will ask you to please get before your God and ask Him to change your heart and mind when it comes to the issue at hand. The Bible is clear on the issue of marriage and sexuality. To suggest that marriage is anything other than being between a man and a woman is heresy. Those who argue that the Bible allows for same sex relationships perform painful hermanutical gymnastics and ignore clear and understandable scripture passages. They do so at their own peril.
Wise, or unwise, right, or wrong, for Margret to perform and openly partner with Jennifer is a big disussion for another day.
As for me I am not going to question Jennifers salvation, I am however challenging her walk, and it is my responsibility and the responsibility of every true follower of Jesus to hold our brothers and sisters accountable to the Word. Jennifer is not simply a Christian struggling with same sex attraction, she is activley and openly engaged in a same sex relationship and ALL that it entails. Since the Bible is clear on this issue, she is openly sinning and needs to repent and stop the sin that she is currently engaged in. She is also openly preaching this lifestyle as accepted behavior by God, this too is herasy and must be called out for what it is. The problem isn’t her sexual attraction, or even preference, it is her embrace of sin and full throated support of it while claiming to be a follower of Christ.
I will note that we all have sin in our life that we need to be called out on and repent of, that is part of the sanctification process. That’s why it is important to live and worship in a Bible based community where we can know others and be known by others. A Faith community is where we work out our salvation to the glory of God.
Thank you so much for speaking up on this issue.
When Jennifer Knapp made her public announcement to pursue this sinful lifestyle, my heart was broken. Obviously I don’t know her personally, but her music was a huge influence in my life. I could not believe what I was reading. If she’d simply said she was leaving God and going down that road, that would’ve been one thing. But to have her now confusing millions of apparently already confused followers of Christ by claiming to still be walking with Christ – this baffles me!
And then on top of it all, now I have to deal with incident after incident of hearing Christians supporting her in this, and then calling ME names when I stand with Scripture. I expected this from the world. But from professing, serious-minded, biblically literate followers of Christ?!
This has all left me stunned. A follow up post on recommendations of how to deal with it would be a great help!
@ Tooblessedtostress –
Please spare me talk of “feelings”. Feelings are not the issue here.
If you are a follower of Christ, then it seems reasonable to assume you have reverence for what the Bible says, correct?
Given this fact, how do you justify supporting a behavior that the Bible repeatedly calls an abomination?
Oh Margaret. Your music has touched me deeply in the past, and the Holy Spirit even healed me emotionally during one of your concerts. That’s why it hurts so much you’d put your name alongside a confessed, unrepentant sexual deviant. The years have somehow led you astray. I will mourn your passing from the lighted path.
Are you kidding me? Margaret is far from ‘leaving the lighted path.’ She is actually walking out principles taught and shown by Jesus. She is not judging, but is being a consistent light used by God. Jesus was a consistent light and hung out with all sorts of people, most of which made the church cringe. Let God be the judger (of her, you and everyone else) and let Him continue to touch you in a positive way through whatever music He chooses, whether it be Margaret’s or someone else’s. That shouldn’t change just because Margaret chose to respond with love. She knows God is not finished with Jennifer. Geez.
@ Forgiven –
“Are you kidding me? Margaret is far from ‘leaving the lighted path.’ She is actually walking out principles taught and shown by Jesus.”
Jesus taught us to promote behavior that the Bible speaks clearly against?
It’s also curious how you speak of not judging, yet you think you can do just that to those who speak in accordance with what Scripture teaches on the matter of homosexuality. Why is that?
Of course it is desirable that she is more explicit in accepting Jennifer exactly how she is rather than just for the long term collaboration – but I understand she’s careful (just like Amy Grand and all) because of the fundamentalists out there who hold way too much power to destroy someone’s career even for just ‘engaging’ with someone who is considered ‘lost’ by this bunch of self-centered judgmental Pharisees.
The comment here about “abandoning God” is all too characteristic of the whole problem. As long as there are a significant amount of so-called Christians in America who think they can decide, from sneaking into other people’s bedrooms so to speak, that the other believer has chosen to “abandon God”, there is little hope for America to become a normal country again. The whole world is watching this and sometimes they really can’t see the difference anymore between radical Islam and radical Bible-Belters. Because there is none. The Bible thumpers need to stop playing god, if ever we want people to find god again. Christianity is currently known to most people for one thing: they pretend to have gods love in them but all they do is judging everyone else. Of course, this is not how reality works. The first thing to consider when facing gay or lesbian people is: do I love them just like I should love others, or do I not? After all these people just want someone in their lives to love – just like all of us. We have no business in other people’s bedroom. Let alone taking decisions about the validity of other people’s faith in god based on such things.
Margaret Backer is doing the right thing here. It is far from being enough, but in light of the sheer damage that already has been done in America “in the name of God”, it’s a good beginning.
“because of the fundamentalists out there who hold way too much power to destroy someone’s career even for just ‘engaging’ with someone who is considered ‘lost’ by this bunch of self-centered judgmental Pharisees.”
Now that is hilarious! Let me guess, you’re claiming to be non-judgmental? Funny!
***
“The comment here about “abandoning God” is all too characteristic of the whole problem. ”
No, the problem is people supporting a behavior that the Bible clearly teaches against. Now, if it was just non-Christians, that would be understandable. But to see so many self-professing followers of Christ doing has left me stunned. (I am assuming you are not one, since a follower of Christ would not be saying the things you are saying here.)
“As long as there are a significant amount of so-called Christians in America who think they can decide, from sneaking into other people’s bedrooms so to speak, that the other believer has chosen to “abandon God”, there is little hope for America to become a normal country again.”
What does this even mean? Who is deciding what? Who is sneaking into anyone’s bedrooms? What kind of “normal country” are you speaking about?
“The whole world is watching this and sometimes they really can’t see the difference anymore between radical Islam and radical Bible-Belters. Because there is none. ”
This is a flat out lie, and you know it.
You show me where there are any open-ended commands in the Bible for Jews or Christians to commit violent acts against unbelievers. And then show me where Jews or Christians are committing such acts, on a regular basis, all over the world, in obedience to such commands.
What idiocy!
After this sickening lie, the rest of your screed is not worth my time to read.
I claim no lack of opinion at all. I just don’t allow my opinion to sit between God and the declared love of God of someone else. It’s a matter of very basic respect for other people.
“No, the problem is people supporting a behavior that the Bible clearly teaches against.” — No, that’s what we would call *your* problem. And if you think all Christians are bible literalists who think there are no signs of culture-specific aspects to the biblical record, then you can have that opinion, just don’t think we all follow such a reasoning. Not to mention that phrases such as “the Bible clearly teaches” do not hold out against the fact that no Christian today believes things today the same way they were believed even just 100 years ago. Your personal interpretations are your responsibility, not ours. Certainly are your (current) insights not the only valid ones, and certainly do your insights not make it more acceptable to judge about the faith and love of God that we can all see in people like Jennifer.
“No, the problem is people supporting a behavior that the Bible clearly teaches against.” — No, that’s what we would call *your* problem. And if you think all Christians are bible literalists who think there are no signs of culture-specific aspects to the biblical record, then you can have that opinion, just don’t think we all follow such a reasoning. Not to mention that phrases such as “the Bible clearly teaches” do not hold out against the fact that no Christian today believes things today the same way they were believed even just 100 years ago. Your personal interpretations are your responsibility, not ours. Certainly are your (current) insights not the only valid ones, and certainly do your insights not make it more acceptable to judge about the faith and love of God that we can all see in people like Jennifer.
“It’s a matter of very basic respect for other people.”
Like the respect you’ve shown me here? Like the respect you’ve shown Christians in general, by the despicable lie that Christians murder those who do not think as we do, the way Muslims following the teachings of Islam do?
And as I said, you KNOW this is a lie, since you refuse to give me the evidence I asked for.
I have nothing further to say to you.
If CORE tenents of Christianity are subject to changing culture and man’s personal whims then what you have left is a weak watered down religion that means nothing. If you’re going to claim to be a follower of Christ there are certain historical tenents that you will have to accept. If you dont like them, then don’t follow them, you have that freedom. But please do not claim to be a Chrsitian and then lecture others who hold dearly to those tenents.
Such is the case with the God ordained institution of marriage. It is VERY clear in the Bible that marriage was created by God and it is to be between a man and woman, period. Any attempt to dodge,deny,twist, or confuse the clear meassages on sexuality in both Old and New Testament is to perform a foolish set of hermenutical gymnastics that will leave you twisted, contorted and painfully, disjointed. There are plenty of other faith systems that will allow one to tinker and toy with sexuality, Historical Christianity is not one of them.
Bible literalists understand historical context and background, we also understand that CORE tenents are not subject to the changing of the tides. MAN MUST ADAPT TO SCRIPTURE, NOT SCRIPTURE TO MAN
Side note, no one is suggesting that we not Love Jennifer Knapp, but tell me this. What is more loving. To exhort someone who is persuing a wrong and dangerous path to come back home, or to allow them to continue down the wide road of destruction without so much as a shouted warning. Real Love speaks truth, in spite of what POP culture deems acceptable.
I am not interested in what people think of me in person, or what they suggest that I said but didn’t say. I never said Christians were murderers. In terms of how they read their sacred book however (bible or quran) or how they judge about others (non-believers, ‘infidels’) it has often been said that people don’t see the difference.
To mr. Moore: no one adapts scripture – it’s a historical text and it is studied that way by many, history is not there to adapt. But we interpret the book in many different ways, and most christians also realize the cultural embedding of the book (e.g. we don’t necessarily give someone wine for his stomach, even while it may sometimes be helpful – but we don’t take that bible verse as an order – yet some do believe the ‘wine advice’ is superior because it’s in the bible – that’s the idea here).
On your remark of “not loving Jennifer Knapp”, the point is if we decide that someone “abandons god” we cannot truly say we respect the belief of that person. You should hear Jennifer when she’s talking to people, in public or in person – she is the opposite of someone who has abandoned God. Now if other people are of the opinion that this is not possible, only because they believe that homosexuality is a wrong and dangerous path, then obviously this is not respecting the inner life of this person (in this case Jennifer) and I feel entitled to suggest this is not love. Saying that someone is on a “road of destruction”, while the only thing that I see in Jennifer Knapp is a lot of the mind of Jesus, is outrageous.
If you say “real love speaks truth” then you need to remember that even Jesus didn’t speak one word about homosexuality as far as we know, even while the practice was widespread in the Roman Empire, it was impossible not to know about it. Your statement is also incorrect for other reasons. The first rule of love is to love, not to “speak some truth” as if speaking some truth would solve our problem to accept the other with human dignity. Being right doesn’t make us good – everyone who has been at the receiving end of some ‘truth’ that was wrong addressed, knows this. Quoting a bible verse cannot solve those problems. We need to love, and from such a position comes an attitude of listening to what the person is really saying and what she really believes.
Historical Christianity:
The Bible is the Living breathing WORD OF GOD, it is without error and is in everyway perfect. It is useful for teaching and correcting and rebuking all men. (John 1:1) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it…14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
The argueent that says “Jesus never Said anything about homosexuality therefore it must be ok” is absolutley silly.In math, we learned that 2+2=4. We never had to learn that 2+2=5 is wrong. Once we knew the correct answer, we could therefore assume that any answer other than 4 was incorrect. Just because we weren’t taught explicitly that 2+2=5 is wrong didn’t mean it was acceptable. We would have certainly had it marked wrong on a test, and no amount of arguing would have changed the teacher’s mind.
When approached regarding the issue of marriage, Jesus simply recalled the words of Moses in Genesis 2:24: “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate” (Matthew 19:4-6).
Jesus taught us what marriage is, so there really wasn’t any need to teach us what marriage is not. If that’s the case, then we can safely assume that whatever doesn’t match up with his description of marriage is wrong.
JCM, you use many words but most of them don’t make sense, perhaps there is a language barrier/breakdown in this siuation. It seems to me that if you are a Christian you do not hold to the traditions of historical Christianity. If that’s the case i really don’t have anything else to say to you. No productive work will be accomplished. Go in peace.
It’s okay not to understand me. It’s clear from the beginning that we are on different tracks after all. I didn’t claim anything about “being Christian” by the way. I don’t admire Jennifer for “being a Christian”, I like her and I respect what she does because I recognize in her things I also always admired in someone like Jesus, as far as we know about him through the (mostly biblical) historical records.
Phrases like “The Bible is the Living breathing WORD OF GOD” tell me nothing, except if I see an installment of such a “living breathing”,in people. Again, this i what I appreciate in Jennifer and others. Bible inerrantism is wasted on me, but you already knew this of course. I do not trust any bookish faiths, but I appreciate the lives of people who have a faith that works through love (Gal 5:6). Jesus too was not following orthodoxy, he was a man with a focus on orthopraxis. I have no stomach either for discussing dogmas or orthodoxy, so this is it as far as I’m concerned.
@ Jcm Manuel –
“I didn’t claim anything about “being Christian” by the way. I don’t admire Jennifer for “being a Christian”, ”
Well, then, why do you keep speaking about a religion that you don’t even follow, and about which you seem to know nothing about?
I am still waiting for a response to this from another of your comments:
“The whole world is watching this and sometimes they really can’t see the difference anymore between radical Islam and radical Bible-Belters. Because there is none. ”
My response and challenge to you was:
This is a flat out lie, and you know it.
You show me where there are any open-ended commands in the Bible for Jews or Christians to commit violent acts against unbelievers. And then show me where Jews or Christians are committing such acts, on a regular basis, all over the world, in obedience to such commands.
Why have you not responded? This is a serious charge you have made, and in public. It seems reasonable to ask you for your evidence, don’t you think?
“Well, then, why do you keep speaking about a religion that you don’t even follow, and about which you seem to know nothing about?”
I think I need to remind you again that I am not interested in what you think of me as a person. I studied theology – one of my fave theologians today is still N.T.Wright, and also Hans Küng (if you’ve read those 6000 pages toe-crushing books, just to begin with, we may perhaps talk about what I know or don’t know, but generally speaking I’m not interested in this sort of poor in personam insinuations at all.
To answer your question why I keep speaking: because I’m involved of course. Our world is connected. An artist that I admire was being treated like she doesn’t even have the right to be Christian. Friends of mine who are gay or lesbian are being dehumanized by all sorts of Christians who judge. And Jesus (the man who said do not judge lest you be judged) is being stolen fro those who admire the teachings and attitude of this man. These and many other reasons makes us “keep speaking”. Even atheist friends of mine (and I am myself not atheist) would say these things “keep them speaking”. Of course they do. It’s their world too. Even an atheist does not per se want a world in which certain ‘believers’ decide on someone else’s account that they “abandon god”. Taking hostage someone’s heart in the name of god is something that makes people “keep speaking” against such behavior and pro a world where everyone’s rights are being respected. I’m surprised that I need to explain these things – this seems quite obvious to most people.
The other question about what I said about radical Muslims and radical Christians I have already answered – look for a phrase that starts with “In terms of how they read their sacred book”. There are many ways in which the difference is hard to see for many of us. Both (uneducated Muslims and, say, the typical bible thumper) tend to hold on to a literal text and refuse to see how much they do their own “hineininterpretierung” (as the Germans put it so beautifully). We interpert our own reading in a text and claim this is what the text is saying. Both (Quran thumpers and Bible thumpers) often reject the very fruitful results of modern text criticism, or they even claim some form of inerrantism (many Muslims do that too). Both tend to quote more easily than actually doing what Mohammed or Jesus actually said. Both tend to point fingers to each other (Christians blame the Koran, muslims berate the bible). Both claim exclusivity of their particular view (e.g. Sunni faith, Evangelical tradition) in stead of having an open mind towards what exactly other people believe and how they live their lives in actual practice. And so on.
“I think I need to remind you again that I am not interested in what you think of me as a person.”
I haven’t said anything about you as a person. Spare me your resume, your arrogance and your condescension and address what I have actually said.
“Friends of mine who are gay or lesbian are being dehumanized by all sorts of Christians who judge.”
No clue what you’re talking about here.
“And Jesus (the man who said do not judge lest you be judged) is being stolen fro those who admire the teachings and attitude of this man.”
Nonsense. Jesus never said not to judge. He said to judge correctly.
Now, how about addressing what I have actually said, instead of adding a whole lot of things that have nothing to do with what I’ve said and asked?
“The other question about what I said about radical Muslims and radical Christians I have already answered – look for a phrase that starts with “In terms of how they read their sacred book”. ”
Except the Islamic sacred book and the Judeo-Christian sacred book teach completely opposite things on the topic of violence against unbelievers. (Among many other things.)
“There are many ways in which the difference is hard to see for many of us. Both (uneducated Muslims and, say, the typical bible thumper) tend to hold on to a literal text and refuse to see how much they do their own “hineininterpretierung” (as the Germans put it so beautifully). We interpert our own reading in a text and claim this is what the text is saying.”
More arrogance and condescending talk. It’s hilarious how you don’t claim to be a Christian, and I don’t know if you’re a Muslim, yet you have the nerve to behave as though you know anything about either religion! (When I have demonstrated several times you clearly do not.)
Please address what I have asked you and please give the evidence I asked for. Either that, or apologize for claiming the Bible and the Quran teach the same things regarding violence toward unbelievers.
“I haven’t said anything about you as a person. Spare me your resume, your arrogance and your condescension and address what I have actually said.”
— Exactly. “Arrogance” is an ad hominem, thanks for the illustration. And, as I am now saying for the 3rd time, it’s not an argument and I have no penchant for repeating this ad nauseam.
“No clue what you’re talking about here” — What you mean is you don’t want to have a clue. Because most people understand that to say about a believer – even someone with such a long history of Christian testimony as Jennifer Knapp – that she “abandons God”, is dehumanizing that person. From the very moment that we pretend to know better than someone else what’s in their heart, we have already been eating from the tree of good and evil. Which is precisely what was forbidden.
“Nonsense. Jesus never said not to judge. He said to judge correctly.”
— I don’t remember any saying of Jesus to judge correctly, He said judge not. He also said “neither do I condemn you” and “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her”.
“Now, how about addressing what I have actually said”
— If you said anything substantial that I may have ignored, feel free to summarize it clearly and in detail. Preferably with an argument, not just insisting on my ‘nonsense’, my ‘arrogance’ etc.(maybe you could do an attempt to put the argument in capitals, the other stuff in lowercase, just to make it easier for me to find the argument).
“Except the Islamic sacred book and the Judeo-Christian sacred book teach completely opposite things on the topic of violence against unbelievers.”
— Which was not the point. I have no interest in diverting from what they have in common, indulging into comparing how much less violent Christians are compared to certain Muslims. By the way I’ve seen this sort of reaction also among atheists (in many of my debates with them). When I point out that some atheists (e.g. the ‘new atheists’) are themselves fundamentalists, then many (but not all) atheists will defend by saying things like “Oh, right – when was the last time an atheist murdered a doctor?” or “When was the last time an atheist was yelling “God hates fags”?” – However, even while this may be true, it is not in itself an argument pro atheism. Neither is your insisting on violence among radical Islam an argument pro Christian faith. Let alone an argument pro your position with regard to a Christian like Jennifer Knapp.
“More arrogance and condescending talk. It’s hilarious how you don’t claim to be a Christian, and I don’t know if you’re a Muslim, yet you have the nerve to behave as though you know anything about either religion! (When I have demonstrated several times you clearly do not.)”
— For the ad hominems and other very interesting suggestions about me “having nerve to behave”,or not, see above. see above. I also think I spot a relevant point within your paragraph though: you seem to insinuate that only Christians know something about Christianity. This is of course not true. I know atheists who know a lot more about theology than most Christians I ever discussed with. As far as I am concerned, I have a great interest in Christianity, even the history of theology is interesting, for instance. I also read a lot about Islamic theology – but from what I see in your comments I doubt that you have any interest in Islam other than using it as a way to emphasize that Christians aren’t suicide bombers and all that.
“Please address what I have asked you and please give the evidence I asked for. Either that, or apologize for claiming the Bible and the Quran teach the same things regarding violence toward unbelievers”
— Look I’ll say it one more time for you. You came up with this violence thingy. Whether you like it or not, the original context was like this: ***as long as there are so-called Christians who think they can decide that some other believer has chosen to “abandon God”, there is little hope, and the world sometimes really cannot see the difference anymore between radical Islam and radical Bible-Belters ***. This was the original context, in summary. Now you can keep trying to distract my attention from your own words, insisting that Christians don’t fly planes into buildings (or any way you want to put it) – but the horrible thing that was important to me on this page was this ‘Christian’ judgment about what’s in another brother’s or sister’s heart.
@ Jcm Manuel –
“I haven’t said anything about you as a person. Spare me your resume, your arrogance and your condescension and address what I have actually said.”
— Exactly. “Arrogance” is an ad hominem, thanks for the illustration.”
No, it’s a description of your continued attitude.
Now, please show me the OT or NT Scriptures which are open-ended commands for Jews or Christians to commit violence against unbelievers. Then show me those commands. Your words were:
“The whole world is watching this and sometimes they really can’t see the difference anymore between radical Islam and radical Bible-Belters. Because there is none. ”
Prove it.
Here are Jesus’ words on judging:
“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Although, I am confused as to why you 1) keep bringing this up, and mangling it in the process and 2) why you would care, since you are not a Christian, right?
***
“Because most people understand that to say about a believer – even someone with such a long history of Christian testimony as Jennifer Knapp – that she “abandons God”, is dehumanizing that person. ”
1 – You do not admire Jennifer Knapp for being a Christian. (Your words from another comment.)
2 – A Christian holding another professing Christian to what the Bible teaches on a topic is not “dehumanizing” them.
“From the very moment that we pretend to know better than someone else what’s in their heart, we have already been eating from the tree of good and evil. Which is precisely what was forbidden.”
What on earth is this about, now? Stop wasting my time and please answer the various points I’ve put to you.
And, oh, quit judging me.
I could not believe it when I saw the announcement of this tour in my inbox.
As a long time fan of Jennifer Knapp, it broke my heart when she decided to abandon God and openly and proudly live the homosexual lifestyle.
Margaret Becker was also a huge influence on me when I first became a Christian. (Though I lost track of her for some years.) Why on earth is she doing this?
Jennifer Knapp is unrepentantly pursuing a lifestyle that God condemns in His Word. How can another professing Christian not only support her in this by making an album with her and touring with her? Worse of all, to choose to do this during the season when we celebrate Christ’s birth?
Let me see if I understand you correctly.
Are you saying you see nothing biblically wrong with a professing Christian openly supporting another professing Christian’s open rebellion toward God by not only participating in but justifying/celebrating a lifestyle that is clearly and repeatedly condemned in Scripture?
And that, on a project released during the time and for the purpose of celebrating the birth of the Savior, who died a bloody death on the cross because of sin like this behavior/lifestyle that Jennifer Knapp is living and Margaret Becker is now publicly supporting?
Is this what you are saying?
Why would there be “blow-back” from two like minded artists collaborating on a joint project? Margaret Becker loving a gay sister should not reflect negatively upon her. Both of these ladies love the Lord and that’s all that matters. I can’t wait to listen to their Christmas album!
No response, eh? Why is that?
No response to what? You didn’t ask me a question.
I apologize, I was trying to respond to the commenter Giddyspinster. Sorry!
I mean really, a Christian can’t even be friends with and love a gay person? Really? Without being fearful of the conservative “Christian” blowback? The Church isn’t on it’s deathbed because of gay people. It’s on it’s deathbed because of its response to anyone “other.”
Reita, I think it’s reasonable to think there might be some reaction to this collaberation,but no one is saying anything about not being friends with, or loving gays. On a side note, the church is battered, bruised and dirty and she a whore who constantly cheats on her bride. However the Bible is clear. The Church will be victorious, and even the gates of Hell will not prevail against her. She has not been, or ever will be, on a deathbed. But thanks for the thoughts!
Bet Jesus would be friends with Jennifer. He often collaborated with the “unacceptables.”